I always appreciate what you share as we are all walking on this journey together. There are two people that have really helped me….. Jamie Winship teaches how to talk to God and how to listen. God will give you your identity, and there are multiples which is very humbling and touching when the God of heaven calls you, his beloved daughter !This has reassured me so much as we were not taught much at all in the two by twos. Graham Cooke speaks so much of God‘s love, which helps me to understand how much I am loved.
I agree, we are not born again by baptism. That is an outward statement of our intimate relationship with our God and His Son Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. The relationship with God is the rebirth of our human nature, and our walk in our lives, through the teachings of Christ and the direction of the Holy Spirit. Yet that doesn't mean that we walk through life without struggles in our human nature, as our nature fights against the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of God fights against our nature.
Since in the beginning of the creation, when Adam and Eve chose to obey the devil's lies, instead of God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that sin has been past on through every generation, including on past our's, as long as the earth is preserved. The fact is, we can never be sinless or perfect in sight of The Holy God, or before His Holiness. The best and only thing that we can do is, accept Jesus Christ's ultimate sacrifice of His life, body, and blood to pay for our sins, and give us the hope of resurrection to everlasting life with Him and God our heavenly Father.
The conclusion is; being born again begins with our true faith in Christ Jesus, and knowing that He has been given a sacrifice for our sins, and now we live in faith through our struggles, with a repentant spirit in our heart, at all times. In that way, when we fail and fall in our struggles, we turn again back to God and ask in Jesus name for forgiveness, God will grant us forgiveness and strength to overcome whatever we failed in.
I write with 70 years of reading the Bible and quite a number of hard experiences in my life, that I had to work through by prayer and supplications to God, and trusting in Him to guide and direct my heart, and reveal what His will is.
As you often do, you put words to my thoughts/feelings. I’m not good with words and I really appreciate when I see what I have been thinking written. Thank you.
I agree that John 3:6 makes a real distinction between flesh and Spirit. I also agree that resurrection is central to the hope of new life in Christ.
But I do not accept the conclusion that if a believer still experiences conflict with the flesh, they are therefore “not yet born again.”
That is a serious claim. In ordinary Christian language, saying someone is not born again comes very close to saying they do not yet belong to Christ. If that is not what you mean, then the distinction needs to be made very carefully.
Paul speaks to believers as people who have received the Spirit, and yet he still describes an active conflict between the flesh and the Spirit. Galatians 5:17 does not sound like a description of unbelievers only. It describes the contested reality of life in the Spirit before resurrection is complete.
So I would distinguish between two things:
A person struggling against the flesh while continuing to turn back toward God.
And a person living according to the flesh as their settled direction.
My article was about the first category, not the second.
I agree that the fullness of Spirit-born life is resurrection life. But Scripture also speaks of a present reality of life by the Spirit now. The fullness is future, but the beginning is now.
The beginning as you say is of a spirit deposit only, a down-payment. We are still flesh and certainly not ‘like the wind’, so are not born again yet on those facts alone.
These are the unambiguous parameters supplied, making distinctions and inferences from the text doesn’t replace what is plain and explicit.
Additionally, there is zero scripture linking born again with baptism. It is not a biblical revelation.
I agree that the Spirit is given now as a deposit, and I agree that the fullness of Spirit-born life is still future. We are not yet resurrected, glorified, or free from mortal flesh.
But I do not think that proves we are “not born again yet.”
John 3:8 does not require the born-again person to be physically “like the wind” in the sense of no longer being flesh. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, who is already misunderstanding new birth in overly physical terms.
The point seems to be that the work of the Spirit is not controlled, measured, or traced by human categories. “You hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes.”
So I do not see “like the wind” as proof that born again must be postponed entirely until resurrection.
The New Testament speaks of believers as having received the Spirit now, being made alive now, being new creation now, and being children of God now, while still awaiting the redemption of the body. That is an "already/not-yet" reality.
The deposit is not the absence of new life. It is the beginning of new life and guarantee of what will be completed.
So I can agree that the fullness is future. But I cannot agree that being born of the Spirit has no present reality in the believer.
On baptism, I was not arguing that baptism itself causes new birth. My point is simply that John 3:5 says “born of water and the Spirit,” so any interpretation has to account for both terms carefully.
I agree we should not import doctrine into the text, but we also should not flatten the language Jesus actually uses.
I always appreciate what you share as we are all walking on this journey together. There are two people that have really helped me….. Jamie Winship teaches how to talk to God and how to listen. God will give you your identity, and there are multiples which is very humbling and touching when the God of heaven calls you, his beloved daughter !This has reassured me so much as we were not taught much at all in the two by twos. Graham Cooke speaks so much of God‘s love, which helps me to understand how much I am loved.
Thank you for sharing those two as well! I'll definitely check them out
I agree, we are not born again by baptism. That is an outward statement of our intimate relationship with our God and His Son Jesus Christ, through the power of the Holy Spirit of God. The relationship with God is the rebirth of our human nature, and our walk in our lives, through the teachings of Christ and the direction of the Holy Spirit. Yet that doesn't mean that we walk through life without struggles in our human nature, as our nature fights against the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of God fights against our nature.
Since in the beginning of the creation, when Adam and Eve chose to obey the devil's lies, instead of God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that sin has been past on through every generation, including on past our's, as long as the earth is preserved. The fact is, we can never be sinless or perfect in sight of The Holy God, or before His Holiness. The best and only thing that we can do is, accept Jesus Christ's ultimate sacrifice of His life, body, and blood to pay for our sins, and give us the hope of resurrection to everlasting life with Him and God our heavenly Father.
The conclusion is; being born again begins with our true faith in Christ Jesus, and knowing that He has been given a sacrifice for our sins, and now we live in faith through our struggles, with a repentant spirit in our heart, at all times. In that way, when we fail and fall in our struggles, we turn again back to God and ask in Jesus name for forgiveness, God will grant us forgiveness and strength to overcome whatever we failed in.
I write with 70 years of reading the Bible and quite a number of hard experiences in my life, that I had to work through by prayer and supplications to God, and trusting in Him to guide and direct my heart, and reveal what His will is.
That's a very lovely way of saying it succinctly: Being born again begins with our true faith in Christ Jesus
As you often do, you put words to my thoughts/feelings. I’m not good with words and I really appreciate when I see what I have been thinking written. Thank you.
Thank you kindly! 🙏😊
Love your musings on this. Our pastor just spoke about this on Sunday! We have been saved and we're being saved.
That's a great way to put it :)
The problem you are confronted with is in the verses you referenced. You didn’t accept the truth they speak but the dogma we were taught instead.
If you are still flesh John 3:6, you are not yet born again.
We follow Jesus who was the first born of many brothers—that happened not at his baptism but at his resurrection.
I have a whole post on this reality.
I agree that John 3:6 makes a real distinction between flesh and Spirit. I also agree that resurrection is central to the hope of new life in Christ.
But I do not accept the conclusion that if a believer still experiences conflict with the flesh, they are therefore “not yet born again.”
That is a serious claim. In ordinary Christian language, saying someone is not born again comes very close to saying they do not yet belong to Christ. If that is not what you mean, then the distinction needs to be made very carefully.
Paul speaks to believers as people who have received the Spirit, and yet he still describes an active conflict between the flesh and the Spirit. Galatians 5:17 does not sound like a description of unbelievers only. It describes the contested reality of life in the Spirit before resurrection is complete.
So I would distinguish between two things:
A person struggling against the flesh while continuing to turn back toward God.
And a person living according to the flesh as their settled direction.
My article was about the first category, not the second.
I agree that the fullness of Spirit-born life is resurrection life. But Scripture also speaks of a present reality of life by the Spirit now. The fullness is future, but the beginning is now.
The beginning as you say is of a spirit deposit only, a down-payment. We are still flesh and certainly not ‘like the wind’, so are not born again yet on those facts alone.
These are the unambiguous parameters supplied, making distinctions and inferences from the text doesn’t replace what is plain and explicit.
Additionally, there is zero scripture linking born again with baptism. It is not a biblical revelation.
I agree that the Spirit is given now as a deposit, and I agree that the fullness of Spirit-born life is still future. We are not yet resurrected, glorified, or free from mortal flesh.
But I do not think that proves we are “not born again yet.”
John 3:8 does not require the born-again person to be physically “like the wind” in the sense of no longer being flesh. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus, who is already misunderstanding new birth in overly physical terms.
The point seems to be that the work of the Spirit is not controlled, measured, or traced by human categories. “You hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes.”
So I do not see “like the wind” as proof that born again must be postponed entirely until resurrection.
The New Testament speaks of believers as having received the Spirit now, being made alive now, being new creation now, and being children of God now, while still awaiting the redemption of the body. That is an "already/not-yet" reality.
The deposit is not the absence of new life. It is the beginning of new life and guarantee of what will be completed.
So I can agree that the fullness is future. But I cannot agree that being born of the Spirit has no present reality in the believer.
On baptism, I was not arguing that baptism itself causes new birth. My point is simply that John 3:5 says “born of water and the Spirit,” so any interpretation has to account for both terms carefully.
I agree we should not import doctrine into the text, but we also should not flatten the language Jesus actually uses.